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Wheelchair coming in. Got incoming, gentlemen.

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In the spring of 2009, American immigration officers

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entered the home of John Demjanjuk,

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a retired auto worker from Cleveland, Ohio.

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At the age of 89,

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he's being forcibly deported to stand trial in Germany.

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Have you got his jacket? Yes, I have his jacket right here.

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It's alleged that 65 years ago,

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Demjanjuk was complicit in 29,000 murders

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as a Nazi concentration camp guard during the Second World War.

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Until now, he's been the world's most wanted Nazi war criminal.

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With Demjanjuk in custody, there are just a handful of others left,

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many of them scattered across Europe.

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Most are now in their 90s.

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I wanted to see if we could find some of these men

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before it's too late, to see if they take this last chance

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to go on record, to give their version of events.

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I'm taking a camera and a colleague, Izzy,

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who unlike me, speaks German.

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SHE SPEAKS IN GERMAN

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Most of these men were our age when they were involved in Hitler's Third Reich.

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It made us want to understand why they collaborated with such a vicious regime.

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How had they lived with themselves ever since?

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And would they be able, after all these years,

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to justify the actions of their youth?

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In 2008, during the European football championships,

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the Sun newspaper found, Milivojasner,

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now the second most wanted Nazi in the world,

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watching a game of football in the small town of Klagenfurt

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in southern Austria.

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After the war, Milivojasner changed his name to George Aschner,

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escaping prosecution and living peacefully for almost 60 years in Austria.

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Now aged 96, he's avoiding trial on the grounds of senility.

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We've written to him to see if he'll meet us.

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Unexpectedly, he's invited us to his home. He said we could go and see him.

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But then, the fact that every time I speak to him he doesn't remember ever having spoken to me before,

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and any time I've made any attempt to make an arrangement, he seems to have no grasp of that arrangement.

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So what, if actually we have arranged to see him? I don't know.

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Who knows?

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SAT NAV:'You have reached your destination.'

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After a long drive,

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we arrive at his flat, with no idea of what we're going to find.

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There's no answer. Has he forgotten our arrangement?

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Or is he avoiding us?

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We decide to leave him a note, and try again in the morning.

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But then we're startled by a neighbour.

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'She knows everything about their lives, he's not recalled Dr Aschner. Also saying that he's very fit,'

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They go out every day for lunch, go out every evening for dinner.

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They drink a litre of red wine every meal,

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and she said you'll see them if you watch.

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She said we could wait for them and we'd see them and they're fit and healthy.

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So, they're putting it on? Well, she was implying...

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She was saying that he's actually very clever and he's all there.

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She was talking about circumstance, where she's helped them out at home. He's actually very sharp.

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He knows exactly what's going on and what he wants.

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She also said that they don't let anyone in,

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or any journalists in, so... But she saidshe'd tell them if she saw them

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that two very nice English people were looking for them.

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She wished us luck!Nice.

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Aschner was the chief of police in the Uniformed State of Croatia

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when the country gained its independence in 1941,

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in exchange for supporting the Nazis.

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It's alleged under this new regime,

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Aschner was in charge of signing deportation orders,

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sending hundreds of Jews, Serbs and gypsiesto Nazi concentration camps.

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At the time, Aschner was just 28, the same age as me.

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I can hardly imagine what his world as a young man must have been like.

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What would drive him to collude with a brutal regime like the Nazis?

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We go back to Aschner's flat early the next morning.

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This time, to our surprise,

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we're let in.

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Immediately, we're struck by how empty the apartment is,

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how few personal possessions he seems to have.

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It's only ten in the morning, but having finally got in,

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neither of us feel we can turn down his offer of neat whisky.

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Having drunk several glasses of whisky, it's hard to know quite what's going on.

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His neighbour had said he's very sharp,

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so we wonder if Aschner is playing up his senility?

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Using us to show the world that he's too old to stand trial.

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One minute, he seems genuinely disorientated, the next,

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he's drinking heavily, as if to erase any memories of the past.

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Croatia's independence had come at the price of collaboration,

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and we wondered if Aschner had felt like he had to collaborate

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in order to keep his job, or even save his own skin?

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He still seems to think he's fighting for Croatia's freedom,

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even now. Or maybe it's his own freedom he's fighting for,

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confined to his empty flat, trapped in the confusion of his own mind.

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Whatever the truth of Aschner's situation, he certainly isn't going

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to be able to give us the answers we're looking for.

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As a frail 96 year-old, it's possible to see why

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some people say he should never be made to stand trial.

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At the end of the war, the architects of Hitler's Third Reich

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were prosecuted at Nuremberg.

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Since then, there have been over 1,000 lesser known Nazi

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war crimes trials for those further down the chain of command.

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I sentence you to death by hanging.

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May God have mercy upon your soul.

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The Simon Wiesenthal Centre,

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the organisation set up to help bring Nazis to justice,

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is still pursuing their list of the top ten most wanted men.

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We've come to Hungary, where Dr Ephraim Zuroff, the Wiesenthal Centre's chief Nazi hunter,

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is holding a press conference to root out the new number one on their list,

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a man by who, by all accounts, is far more lucid than Aschner.

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I want to go to the main reason that we're here today. That's the case of Sandor Kepiro.

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Sandor Kepiro, as many of you know,

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he was one of the officers who organised the mass murder of Jews,

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Serbs and gypsies in Novi Sad, Serbia.

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There's an ongoing criminal process.

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The main investigation, against Dr Sandor Kepiro,

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ex-Royal Hungarian Army Gendarmerie Captain.

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This is basically why I'm here,

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to appeal to the Hungarian government to do what it has to do.

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In other words, they might have hoped that he'd die

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and do them a favour, but as you can all see, Kepiro is not co-operating.

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He's not dying, has no intention of dying, so the time has come

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for the government to do the right thing and do it immediately.

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Thank you very much.

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Do you ever feel any sympathy for Mr Kepiro, who's in his 90s?

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He's the last person on Earth that deserves any sympathy.

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Do you know what? You're not supposed to look at him and see a 94 year-old.

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You're supposed to look at him and think of a young man in his prime,

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who had no compunction about organising a mass murder of innocent men, women and children.

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That's what you should look at, that's what you should see now. Don't be fooled by the wrinkles.

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Like Aschner, Sandor Kepiro was a career policeman

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when Hungary entered the war on the side of the Nazis.

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He too would have had to collaborate in order to keep his job.

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It's alleged that in 1942, as a 29 year-old Gendarme,

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Kepiro was in charge of organising the identity checks

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of 1,400 undesirables.

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Over three days, men, women and children

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were rounded up and then shot into the frozen waters of the Danube.

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This event came known as the Massacre of Novi Sad.

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We've used the same approach as we did with Aschner,

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writing a polite letter to Kepiro, asking if we can meet him.

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And it seems to have worked.

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We found a local journalist, who will be our Hungarian translator.

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We're on our way to the home of the most wanted Nazi in the world.

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After the war, like many caught up in Nazi war crimes,

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Kepiro fled to the safe haven of South America,

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spending 50 years in Argentina.

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He returned to Hungary, his homeland,

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in 1996to live out his final years.

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Having turned down requests for other interviews in the past, we're wondering if Kepiro

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also sees this as an opportunity to present himself in a good light.

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I am happy, very happy...

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to see...

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To see us?

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All to see.

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All the men...

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all the men.

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What would you like to drink?

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Martini, Campari and water.

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OK, but not too strong!

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Drink. A drink.

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Yes, yes.

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'Once again, we find ourselves drinking with a man accused of war crimes.

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'It's more than a little uncomfortable,

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but we're in his home and feel obliged to follow his lead.'

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Chin chin. Salut.

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Salut.

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Kepiro is putting so much effort into being charming and hospitable

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that I'm wondering how we're ever going to bring up his past.

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Aperitif.

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So he thinks he will go to Heaven?

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TRANSLATION:But I loved being a gendarme officer. That was my vocation.

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I loved doing it and I didn't do it for money.

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'He's talking about his years as a gendarme as if his record is completely untarnished,

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'but he's playing the part of the host so well

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'that neither Izzy nor I pick him up on it.'

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Beautiful Izzy!

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'The same naive approach we've used to get into his front room has stopped us getting any answers

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'to the difficult questions we've come here to ask.

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'At 94 years old, Kepiro seems entirely lucid

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'and I get the impression he knows exactly what's going on.'

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Goodbye.Goodbye. Very nice to meetyou.Bye-bye.Bye-bye.

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'I can't understand why, as the world's must wanted Nazi, he's not on trial.

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'But I get the sense that the political will to prosecute Kepiro just isn't there.'

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After the war, Hungary endured a brutal communist dictatorship for 40 years.

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In comparison, for Hungary, the Nazi era was relatively short lived.

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Germany, in contrast, has been completely defined by the crimes of the Third Reich.

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60 years on, Germany is still dealing with its past.

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We're on our way to Munich, where what's been billed as the last Nazi war crimes trial is taking place.

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We want to see what it might be like if Aznar or Kepiro

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were ever brought to trial.

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The man being tried, Josef Scheungraber,

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was arrested in 2008.

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We've come to meet the person who formally identified him -

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his nephew.

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I was knowing

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this is my uncle.

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This is not any Josef Scheungraber of...in Germany.

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Then they asked me, "Is this your uncle?"

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Why should I not tell the truth?

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I must say, "Yes. He is my uncle."

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If you have done a crime, you are responsible.

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This is a very normal fact.

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If you stole something in a supermarket, you are responsible.

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I will say it very clear.

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Germany has a responsibility

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for World War Two and for the Holocaust.

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And the victims, all victims,

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every victim, not only in Germany, has a right of justice.

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It's alleged that in 1944,

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Josef Scheungraber ordered his men to murder 14 Italian civilians,

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11 of them locked in a barn and burned alive.

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When we meet Scheungraber at the court house,

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he's already been on trial for six months.

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Surrounded by a team of lawyers, he looks exhausted.

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TRANSLATED:

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At 90 years old, Scheungraber

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is one of the oldest men ever to stand trial for Nazi war crimes.

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He regularly falls asleep in court and often his hearing aids don't work with the court speaker system.

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With few surviving witnesses to the events of 65 years ago, today, the court is trying to establish

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which group of soldiers might have been responsible for the murders

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of the 14 civilians, by working out what colour uniforms they were wearing at the time.

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This is potentially the last ever Nazi war crimes trial and they're using a children's book

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to identify soldiers for events that are so long ago, nobody's quite sure what they saw.

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Every few hours, the court adjourns to give Scheungraber a break, on the grounds of his health.

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But no one seems to object that he always goes straight to the bar.

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Scheungraber has decided to stand silent before the court,

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and, frustratingly, that also means he won't talk to us.

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But we're getting the sense that for the people

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who regularly attend the court, this trial is hugely important.

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Everybody here grows up hearing about the Nazi crimes

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in school and history class.

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It's only later that you realise that it's not history, the history isn't closed yet, it's not over yet.

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It's still going on. There are still people who are responsible for those crimes,

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and if you have the possibility to do a trial about one of those people,

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then I think it's important to do it.

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We wondered if Scheungraber is in some way being used as a symbol of a collective guilt of a nation.

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But there are some who are angry that Germany feels any guilt at all.

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It's the weekend before the 120th anniversary of Hitler's birth.

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Across Germany, there's a handful of neo-Nazi gatherings,

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each met with strong anti-fascist counter-demonstrations.

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Here in Dusseldorf, one of the most charismatic speakers

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of the far right has taken to the podium.

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APPLAUSE

238
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Ursula Haverbeck has been a champion of the far-right for decades.

239
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As a leader in the Hitler Youth, who later married a senior member

240
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:04,040
of the Nazi administration, she spent most of her life immersed in Nazi ideology.

241
00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,000
She's clearly not afraid of speaking her mind,

242
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and she's been arrested several times for denying the Holocaust.

243
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:19,560
She's invited us to her house so we can talk openly about her beliefs.

244
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You lead the way.

245
00:28:21,120 --> 00:28:24,320
Of course, I must lead the way. You couldn't...

246
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,360
You have a very big house.Yes.

247
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Have you always lived here?

248
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,520
Yes. All the people who lived with me here are dead.

249
00:28:37,560 --> 00:28:39,760
This is my husband.

250
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,320
When did your husband die?

251
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,200
'99.

252
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:53,000
Here... that's when I was seven, and my sister five.

253
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:55,480
Which one are you?

254
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,560
I'd very long plaits.

255
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,120
All these pictures and books,

256
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I took when we had to leave our home by horse cart.

257
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,560
When did you have to leave your home?In '45, in January.

258
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When the Russians came.

259
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,760
What was it like?

260
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:17,200
We always thought we'd come home again, that we could turn back.

261
00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:20,440
Nobody believed that it would be forever.

262
00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:24,600
It is forever.

263
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,680
In the aftermath of war, Haverbeck, like many Germans,

264
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lost her home and was forced to travel across Europe from east to west.

265
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Thousands died all round her.

266
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She believes that during the war, the suffering of the Germans was at least equal, if not worse,

267
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to the suffering of the Jews,

268
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and that the estimated 6 million who died has been vastly exaggerated.

269
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As such, she doesn't believe that there was a planned genocide of the Jewish people.

270
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Yes, my gloves.

271
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For the last 40 years, Haverbeck's taught

272
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,320
Nazi ideology from an academy built on the edge of her land.

273
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In 2008, it was shut down by the authorities for breaking German law, as a centre for Holocaust denial.

274
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This was a school house with two classrooms, and every classroom had four...

275
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SHE SPEAKS IN GERMAN

276
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< Year groups? Pardon? <Year groups?

277
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From six, to 10, and from 10, to 14.

278
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This is a big seminar room.

279
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:45,280
And they have taken out everything.

280
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:47,680
It's just an empty room now.

281
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You can't see anything through it.

282
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:54,480
They just closed it.

283
00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,680
They didn't like the political aspect, they didn't like...

284
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,720
Holocaust denial, they didn't like because...

285
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,440
But I really think the...

286
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:10,160
What they didn't like, that people had the opportunity here

287
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,680
to meet without being political correct.

288
00:31:13,720 --> 00:31:15,840
Why did they close it?

289
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,040
Because it's forbidden.

290
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Because it's dangerous.

291
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I am the speaker of the society, and I am so dangerous!

292
00:31:26,840 --> 00:31:30,400
Haverbeck believes that the current world recession

293
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makes now the time for a resurgence of Nazi ideas.

294
00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:45,880
I would say National Socialism is a better way than capitalism or communism, that's quite clear.

295
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,520
Because, economy as it is now, is deadly.

296
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,680
It's really deadly, to the Earth and to the human beings.

297
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We see it now.

298
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'I realised that none of the alleged Nazi war criminals we've met have actually professed Nazi beliefs.

299
00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,440
'They were members of the police or the army, collaborators

300
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:14,400
'or facilitators, but not necessarily believers.

301
00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:20,080
'Haverbeck, on the other hand, really is a last remnant of the Third Reich.'

302
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,760
This is a film that was shown at the Nuremberg trial as evidence.

303
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:30,960
The Allied cameramen filmed what they found.

304
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,600
This was the footage that was then shown.

305
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:37,240
You must show then the children...

306
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,280
At the same time, the suffering of the 50 million Germans...

307
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:44,240
It doesn't matter if other people suffered as well, this is...

308
00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,520
No, in Germany you don't see that.

309
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:52,200
In those school books, you find the Germans driven away? You only find such pictures. It's true.

310
00:32:52,240 --> 00:32:59,120
These pictures, exactly I would say that were we, when we went on horse carts away.

311
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,480
Haverbeck's belief that the Holocaust is exaggerated,

312
00:33:02,520 --> 00:33:06,560
or in any way comparable to her own suffering as a refugee,

313
00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:09,480
made us feel like we had to challenge her.

314
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:15,800
It's a camp that was built to house people that they didn't want

315
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:20,520
living amongst the normal population, that's been constructed on a massive scale,

316
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:22,720
to eradicate a race.

317
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:28,920
Even in our schools, you always see these pictures.

318
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,440
Always the same.

319
00:33:32,600 --> 00:33:38,360
Think, if your parents have always been told to you to be murders, what would you think about them?

320
00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:41,320
What if they WERE? What if they WERE?Then I'd...

321
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,040
They were not murders, all of them. Not at all.

322
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:51,080
D'you think it's right to show children

323
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:55,000
always these pictures, do you think that's right?

324
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:56,760
We think it's important.Yeah.

325
00:33:56,800 --> 00:33:58,800
Cos this happened in your lifetime.

326
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,760
This happened 60 years ago.

327
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:04,880
That's not that long ago.

328
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:10,080
Yes, but nobody in Britain would have shown every day of every year

329
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:15,760
to the children how the Irish people suffered, under British government.

330
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:20,760
Nobody would do that to the children, because it destroys the children's soul.

331
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,600
What does it make you think when you see them again?

332
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,480
I ask why they are always shown?

333
00:34:40,600 --> 00:34:43,200
And only THIS kind of pictures.

334
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,120
Does it make you uncomfortable to watch those images?

335
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:56,760
You, you... I have seen them so many times, it's nothing new for me.

336
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,360
Of course you don't want to see these things.

337
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,520
They make you uncomfortable, it's true.

338
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:09,280
I've seen them on the road, when we came on horse cart, from east to west.

339
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:14,520
So, I don't need pictures for it, I've seen them in original.

340
00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:25,760
'Confronting Haverbeck made us realise that perhaps, by letting the people we've met speak so freely,

341
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:30,800
'we've failed to properly challenge any of them about their role in the crimes of the Nazi era.'

342
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,280
I feel very frustrated.

343
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:39,320
I mean, whether because of their age, or because they can't talk freely because they're accused,

344
00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:45,480
or because they've written histories in their head that write out anything that, you know...

345
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:51,320
is not to be proud of... But, yeah, I just feel that we haven't really had one

346
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:55,840
totally honest, open conversation with anyone.

347
00:35:58,920 --> 00:36:04,840
Sandor Kepiro is the world's most wanted Nazi war criminal.

348
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:10,240
We're determined to find out more about the legacy of his role in the Novi Sad massacre.

349
00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:19,120
But when we arrive, his doorbell has been vandalised and we can't get in.

350
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,280
That must be his.

351
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,320
It's been destroyed.

352
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,600
Eventually, a neighbour opens the door.

353
00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:40,480
Three years ago, the Hungarian media was full of allegations that Kepiro,

354
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:45,960
as an officer in the wartime gendarmerie, was in charge of identifying families

355
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:50,520
who were rounded up and then executed on the banks of the River Danube.

356
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,160
Hello, hello. Good morning.

357
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,200
Good day or....?

358
00:37:00,240 --> 00:37:02,240
Yes, good day.

359
00:37:02,280 --> 00:37:05,320
Good day.Good day.

360
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,840
'Today, he's got a law student with him.

361
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,680
'And, oddly, she seems to be a bit of a fan.'

362
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:34,040
Yes, yes.

363
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:22,240
How have people reacted to you after this?

364
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:02,560
Did they know what they were rounding up people for?

365
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,440
No, the soldiers didn't...

366
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:16,160
It was all in secret. Also, we were transported there in secret.

367
00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,400
We didn't even know where we were going, and why.

368
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:14,280
Does he ever wonder what would've happened if he'd have refused to take people's...?

369
00:40:32,880 --> 00:40:36,120
What shall I tell you, 65 years...?

370
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,280
I don't feel guilty for that.

371
00:40:54,840 --> 00:41:00,240
Maybe because he was just doing his job, not carrying out an ideological conviction,

372
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:06,640
Kepiro doesn't see himself as being a part of the murder of those 1,400 civilians.

373
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:11,560
He should feel the weight of it.

374
00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:16,000
He should feel the weight that he was there, somewhere,

375
00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,040
where terrible things...

376
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:22,440
where a massacre happened very near.

377
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:31,960
He puts himself at the scene of the crime, accepts complicity, yet denies any guilt.

378
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:37,800
As far as I can see, Kepiro is quite capable, but shows no remorse.

379
00:41:52,720 --> 00:41:58,440
One of the last alleged Nazi war criminals ever to be brought to justice, Josef Scheungraber,

380
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:05,400
also denies the charges against him and has so far refused to speak in court or to us.

381
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:12,520
But with the trial entering its sixth month and with no sign of a conclusion,

382
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,640
Scheungraber's suddenly decided he's ready to talk.

383
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:27,840
We follow him and his lawyer to the underground car park of the court house.

384
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:30,880
They're going to take us somewhere where we can interview him.

385
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:44,440
Where are you taking us?

386
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:48,880
Wievel Kilometers ist es vonhier...?

387
00:42:48,920 --> 00:42:51,000
12 kilometres from here.

388
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,080
We're driven to a small town on the outskirts of Munich,

389
00:42:59,120 --> 00:43:04,120
where Scheungraber and his wife have lived ever since the end of the war.

390
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,480
So a very respected member of the community.

391
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:28,280
'After a 45-minute drive, we arrived to find another of Scheungraber's lawyers waiting for us.

392
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,160
'We've got no idea what's going on.'

393
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,680
THEY GREET IN GERMAN

394
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:50,480
Scheungraber, a former German army officer,

395
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:54,720
is accused of ordering the murder of 14 Italian civilians

396
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:59,560
in revenge for an attack on his men at the end of the war.

397
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:04,360
He's already been found guilty in absentia by an Italian military court.

398
00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,240
We'd thought he'd brought us here to talk to us freely,

399
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:14,320
but, bizarrely, his legal team have prepared a series of questions and answers for us to read out.

400
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,680
It's all a bit surreal, but we feel obliged to go along with it.

401
00:46:21,840 --> 00:46:28,800
With the questions and answers out of the way, Scheungraber's legal team suddenly leave us in peace.

402
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:33,000
Once again, we're drinking with an alleged war criminal.

403
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,520
But then finally our friendly approach pays off.

404
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:43,160
Scheungraber seems to warm to us and tells us he's got something he wants to show us.

405
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:23,840
And they have... ..How do you say?

406
00:47:23,880 --> 00:47:26,240
Graves.Yes.

407
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,320
Good memories because he's still here.

408
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:32,240
It feels like after months standing silent in court,

409
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:38,800
Scheungraber's finally trying to explain to us what he sees as the reality of his past.

410
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:58,400
Scheungraber's photographs brought home just how messy and brutal his experience of war must have been.

411
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:03,000
How grey the moral lines of his day-to-day life must have seemed.

412
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:11,920
We couldn't judge the events he'd been involved in when he was younger than us,

413
00:49:11,960 --> 00:49:17,480
a 25-year-oldin charge of a group of menfighting for their lives.

414
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:24,320
But we could judge men who, withhindsight, and at the end of their lives,

415
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,280
still couldn't see their role in the horrors of the Nazi era.

416
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:32,240
It's just a firing squad, isn't it?

417
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,600
And there as well.

418
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:43,000
Sandor Kepiro has had 60 years to reflect on the three nights

419
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:49,800
he'd been involved in rounding up families, who were then massacred on the banks of the Danube.

420
00:49:49,840 --> 00:49:55,320
You can see in the photos that it was a freezing cold night in the middle of winter...

421
00:49:57,120 --> 00:49:59,520
..and that people were taken to the river banks...

422
00:50:00,560 --> 00:50:02,560
..and just shot.

423
00:50:06,320 --> 00:50:13,160
Look how well-dressed against the cold the officers are and the people look half naked.

424
00:50:14,720 --> 00:50:19,680
These people have got bare legs. It was minus 30 or something.

425
00:50:22,080 --> 00:50:25,880
We're going back to Hungary to see Kepiro one last time.

426
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,760
He's always welcomed us warmly into his home.

427
00:50:29,800 --> 00:50:33,440
Now we're taking photographs of the massacre to show to him,

428
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,160
hoping it might trigger some kind of emotional response.

429
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:43,760
They had to cannonball a hole in the river because it was so thick with ice,

430
00:50:43,800 --> 00:50:47,400
so they had to make a hole they could push all the bodies into.

431
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,920
It's definitely the...

432
00:50:52,960 --> 00:50:55,760
..the most sickening...

433
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:00,200
..sort of single incident that we've had to...

434
00:51:01,800 --> 00:51:03,800
..come across, isn't it?

435
00:51:18,640 --> 00:51:21,040
Good morning.

436
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:27,960
Izzie Mizzi!Ja!

437
00:51:29,000 --> 00:51:31,400
Miguel. Miguel.

438
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,680
No, not Miguel - Charlie.

439
00:51:33,720 --> 00:51:35,920
Charlie.Charlie. Charlie.

440
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:40,200
Charlie.How are you? Disculpeme. Disculpe.

441
00:51:41,240 --> 00:51:46,440
Despite the fact that it's only 10am, Kepiro, ever the perfect host,

442
00:51:46,480 --> 00:51:51,800
has once again cooked us lunch and invited his friend, Eva, for extra support.

443
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:07,360
But we're determined that we're not going to be put off from getting the answers we've come for.

444
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,800
These are photographs

445
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:15,600
that a researcher at the BBC has found of Novi Sad

446
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:21,560
and we wanted to show you to see if you have any memories or what you think of them.

447
00:52:21,600 --> 00:52:24,080
HE SPEAKS IN GERMAN

448
00:52:24,120 --> 00:52:26,120
I haven't seen these.

449
00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:32,040
Where I was, I couldn't see such things.

450
00:52:58,640 --> 00:53:02,520
But they were linked, and I know you didn't know what was going to happen,

451
00:53:02,560 --> 00:53:04,560
but maybe...

452
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:06,600
if you hadn't have...

453
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,120
taken people,

454
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:11,440
maybe they wouldn't have died.

455
00:53:35,040 --> 00:53:37,520
This is terrible, horrible.

456
00:53:44,120 --> 00:53:48,720
But I didn't see that person there.

457
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,960
Where I was, I didn't see such things.

458
00:53:53,000 --> 00:53:55,120
Where I was,

459
00:53:55,160 --> 00:53:57,320
these things didn't happen.

460
00:53:57,360 --> 00:54:01,720
It's difficult to work out what Kepiro would have known at the time,

461
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:08,880
but if he saved a family ashe claims, surely he must have known that others were going to be killed.

462
00:54:11,200 --> 00:54:14,000
And children, you remember children?

463
00:54:57,320 --> 00:55:01,440
Even if he didn't know the consequences of his actions then,

464
00:55:01,480 --> 00:55:05,840
he's had the rest of his life to reflect on what did happen.

465
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,400
I suppose we just want to know how you look back on the fact

466
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:15,440
that you were part of something that did things like this to people.

467
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,000
I'm very sorry, but what can I do?

468
00:56:26,520 --> 00:56:28,920
What can I do? How can...?

469
00:56:33,760 --> 00:56:40,360
How can I set it right? Shall I stand out in the street and shout? Or what?

470
00:56:40,400 --> 00:56:46,080
I don't have anything to do with things that other people did.

471
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:56,520
Kepiro seems to think that the factthat he never murdered anyone with his own hands

472
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:58,760
completely exonerates him,

473
00:56:58,800 --> 00:57:04,200
but his admission that he might have known what was going to happen to the families he rounded up

474
00:57:04,240 --> 00:57:06,440
is still shocking for us to hear.

475
00:57:09,760 --> 00:57:16,200
For 12 years, millions died at the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators.

476
00:57:16,240 --> 00:57:21,040
In part, because so many blindly fulfilled their orders

477
00:57:21,080 --> 00:57:25,360
and managed to convince themselves that they were not responsible.

478
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:32,400
The men and women we'd met were the last of a generation -

479
00:57:32,440 --> 00:57:37,080
guilty by association, cogs in a grander machine.

480
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:43,280
We'd been warmly welcomed into their homes and, in some way, had got to know each of them.

481
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:46,640
It had been a strange and surreal experience.

482
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:51,400
Whatever the truth of the peoplewe've met,

483
00:57:51,440 --> 00:57:57,240
their lives seem to have been forever changed by the events of just a handful of days,

484
00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,440
each of them now facing a lonely end to their very long lives.