1 00:00:01,000 --> 00:00:05,499 'In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.' 2 00:00:05,860 --> 00:00:08,379 'And God said, "Let there be light."' 3 00:00:08,380 --> 00:00:12,379 'The gathering together of the waters called He seas.' 4 00:00:12,500 --> 00:00:16,499 'God created man in his own image.' 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:22,139 For more than 1,500 years, Christians saw the Bible 6 00:00:22,580 --> 00:00:26,579 as the primary source of knowledge. 7 00:00:27,940 --> 00:00:30,779 But in the 17th century, a new movement emerged 8 00:00:30,780 --> 00:00:34,779 that challenged the Christian view of the world. 9 00:00:35,060 --> 00:00:38,019 The scientific revolution. 10 00:00:38,220 --> 00:00:42,219 It was a time when people were looking towards a new way of thinking about the world. 11 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:46,339 During the Renaissance, the rising power of science 12 00:00:46,340 --> 00:00:50,339 forced the Catholic Church to silence rebellious scientists. 13 00:00:51,700 --> 00:00:55,899 The sentence says the reason that you're burning is because you denied 14 00:00:56,100 --> 00:01:00,099 the divinity of Jesus and because you questioned our authority. 15 00:01:01,740 --> 00:01:05,019 By the 19th century, the Enlightenment had given rise to 16 00:01:05,020 --> 00:01:10,019 a new generation of scientists who pushed Christianity into retreat. 17 00:01:11,020 --> 00:01:16,019 Darwin removed the main argument for God's existence. 18 00:01:17,020 --> 00:01:21,419 If science continues to make discoveries that conflict with Christian doctrine, 19 00:01:22,040 --> 00:01:25,219 I wonder will the scientific revolution ultimately 20 00:01:25,220 --> 00:01:28,219 make Christianity redundant? 21 00:01:34,860 --> 00:01:36,659 What we now call science emerged 22 00:01:36,660 --> 00:01:39,299 about 400 years ago through the work of a group 23 00:01:39,300 --> 00:01:43,299 of European thinkers who discovered new ways of interpreting the world. 24 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,939 They no longer relied on the delivered word of God. 25 00:01:46,940 --> 00:01:48,819 The scientific revolution put 26 00:01:48,820 --> 00:01:54,819 individual curiosity, enquiry, reason and experiment above religious dogma. 27 00:01:55,460 --> 00:01:58,579 To my mind, science is quite simply 28 00:01:58,580 --> 00:02:02,579 the biggest challenge that Christianity will ever have to face. 29 00:02:14,460 --> 00:02:17,819 I don't believe in God. 30 00:02:18,020 --> 00:02:21,179 Some scientists manage to retain their faith 31 00:02:21,180 --> 00:02:24,699 but I think science is our only route to knowledge, 32 00:02:24,700 --> 00:02:28,379 an idea some people still find threatening. 33 00:02:28,380 --> 00:02:32,379 Nowadays we all recognise the power of science, we look to science 34 00:02:32,380 --> 00:02:36,379 to explain the world, to solve our problems. 35 00:02:36,660 --> 00:02:39,659 But science also has its enemies. 36 00:02:39,660 --> 00:02:44,659 I myself was subjected for 15 years to a campaign of hatred and terror 37 00:02:45,340 --> 00:02:49,339 from animal rights activists because of the research that I did. 38 00:02:50,300 --> 00:02:54,299 Perhaps it's because science necessarily challenges 39 00:02:54,500 --> 00:02:58,499 the orthodox view of the day in order to make progress. 40 00:02:58,700 --> 00:03:04,699 And often that orthodoxy is fundamentally religious. 41 00:03:08,460 --> 00:03:11,579 Today, I'm professor of neuroscience 42 00:03:11,580 --> 00:03:13,259 here at Oxford. 43 00:03:13,660 --> 00:03:17,299 When the first colleges were founded in the 12th century, 44 00:03:17,300 --> 00:03:21,299 the Christian Church was planting the seeds of science. 45 00:03:22,580 --> 00:03:26,179 Oxford's been a seat of learning for more than 900 years. 46 00:03:26,180 --> 00:03:30,179 Just 30 years after the Norman invasion in 1066 scholars were teaching here. 47 00:03:30,380 --> 00:03:36,379 Oxford Became a centre for discussion, for debate, for investigation, 48 00:03:36,500 --> 00:03:40,379 all of it sponsored and encouraged by the Christian Church. 49 00:03:40,380 --> 00:03:42,819 The motto of the university says it all, really - 50 00:03:42,820 --> 00:03:47,819 Dominus illuminatio mea, 'God is my light'. 51 00:03:49,260 --> 00:03:53,059 Believing that God had given humans the power of reason, 52 00:03:53,060 --> 00:03:56,499 the Church championed the beginnings of science, 53 00:03:56,500 --> 00:03:59,499 assuming it would confirm their faith. 54 00:04:01,820 --> 00:04:03,899 This is the Old Schools Quadrangle. 55 00:04:03,900 --> 00:04:08,899 It was built in the early 17th century and it was the focus of all the teaching at the university. 56 00:04:09,260 --> 00:04:11,459 It's dominated by the Divinity School. 57 00:04:11,460 --> 00:04:14,699 There's logic, metaphysics, grammar and history. 58 00:04:14,700 --> 00:04:16,219 There's mathematics, 59 00:04:16,220 --> 00:04:20,919 there's astronomy, and here, the School of Natural Philosophy. 60 00:04:21,340 --> 00:04:25,339 Natural philosophy was the 17th century word for science, 61 00:04:25,680 --> 00:04:29,779 science being nurtured in an ecclesiastical environment 62 00:04:30,060 --> 00:04:33,499 as part of a religious and classical education. 63 00:04:33,500 --> 00:04:37,999 For hundreds of years Christians had looked to the leading experts on the natural world, 64 00:04:38,740 --> 00:04:42,739 the Ancient Greeks, to explain God's creation. 65 00:04:44,540 --> 00:04:49,539 In Christianity there is a central notion that God created the world. 66 00:04:50,780 --> 00:04:54,979 Aristotle however, probably the most important of the Greek natural philosophers, 67 00:04:56,340 --> 00:04:57,739 argued that the cosmos was eternal, 68 00:04:57,940 --> 00:05:01,939 so they thought that many Christian ideas were rather silly. 69 00:05:04,980 --> 00:05:09,179 Right from the start, rational thinkers forced Christians 70 00:05:09,180 --> 00:05:13,179 to consider the possibility that the Biblical explanation of the world was wrong. 71 00:05:15,920 --> 00:05:21,219 In the fifth century, the Christian theologian St Augustine came up with a solution. 72 00:05:23,740 --> 00:05:27,739 He says, the message we find in the Bible is accommodated to 73 00:05:27,860 --> 00:05:32,859 human capacities, which is to say that the Bible speaks in 74 00:05:33,100 --> 00:05:37,179 language that we can understand and this then will account for 75 00:05:37,180 --> 00:05:40,779 some of the discrepancies between what we find in Genesis 76 00:05:40,780 --> 00:05:46,779 and what we find in the current or contemporary science. 77 00:05:48,860 --> 00:05:54,859 St Augustine laid down the rules for the relationship between science and Christianity. 78 00:05:56,940 --> 00:06:00,039 The Church would accommodate science's findings, 79 00:06:00,140 --> 00:06:04,039 as long as they didn't threaten its authority. 80 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:09,739 For the next thousand years, Christianity remained firmly in control 81 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,739 of all knowledge and helped generate the first glorious period 82 00:06:13,740 --> 00:06:15,819 of the scientific revolution - 83 00:06:15,820 --> 00:06:18,259 the Renaissance. 84 00:06:19,260 --> 00:06:23,559 Hard to believe but in about 1510, one of the most significant 85 00:06:23,940 --> 00:06:27,419 developments of the Renaissance took place not in glorious Rome, 86 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:31,819 or in Venice, or in Florence, but here, in this sleepy little town 87 00:06:32,700 --> 00:06:35,699 on the Baltic coast, in Poland. 88 00:06:37,020 --> 00:06:39,539 While Italy was the centre of Renaissance art 89 00:06:39,540 --> 00:06:45,539 and literature, a local priest made Poland the focal point for science. 90 00:06:47,080 --> 00:06:50,859 Nicolaus Copernicus came here in the mid-16th century, 91 00:06:50,860 --> 00:06:54,859 after studying in Italy, and took services at Frombork cathedral. 92 00:06:55,460 --> 00:07:01,459 But he spent most of his time watching the sky and studying the movement of planets. 93 00:07:03,260 --> 00:07:07,259 In this tower in the cathedral grounds, Copernicus made an extraordinary discovery 94 00:07:07,380 --> 00:07:11,379 that led to science's first major challenge to Christian belief. 95 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:16,859 So, Margaret, what was the standard dogma in astronomy 96 00:07:16,860 --> 00:07:20,859 at the time that Copernicus began to study astronomy? 97 00:07:21,900 --> 00:07:23,539 (SPEAKS POLISH) 98 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:27,379 TRANSLATION: The earth was thought to be surrounded by unchanging stars 99 00:07:27,380 --> 00:07:31,379 and Christians believed it was the centre of the universe. 100 00:07:32,460 --> 00:07:35,219 They thought the sun and the planets circled round 101 00:07:35,220 --> 00:07:39,019 a supposedly stationary earth. 102 00:07:41,860 --> 00:07:47,859 But in his study, Copernicus wrote a book that argued against this Christian view. 103 00:07:48,300 --> 00:07:53,299 He claimed that the earth was actually one of the planets orbiting the sun. 104 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,819 TRANSLATION: Copernicus finished his masterpiece in 1533 105 00:08:00,980 --> 00:08:04,979 and he knew his ideas were revolutionary. 106 00:08:07,180 --> 00:08:14,179 The Vatican realised that Copernicus's speculations contradicted the Biblical view 107 00:08:14,860 --> 00:08:18,859 that the earth is stationary, at the centre of the universe. 108 00:08:20,820 --> 00:08:25,019 But it was willing to tolerate his ideas, for now. 109 00:08:28,000 --> 00:08:30,479 The Catholic Church was a powerful institution, 110 00:08:30,980 --> 00:08:34,979 how could it be threatened by one person, even if his ideas were revolutionary? 111 00:08:38,500 --> 00:08:45,499 The Pope was hoping that despite all his research, Copernicus's conclusions would be proved wrong. 112 00:08:48,500 --> 00:08:53,499 There's no doubt that, here in Frombork, in the heart of the Church, Copernicus planted a seed, 113 00:08:54,500 --> 00:08:58,999 a seed of tension between religious authority and human enquiry 114 00:08:59,580 --> 00:09:03,079 which has grown over the following 500 years. 115 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:10,099 It was others who followed Copernicus, who invented science to test his views, 116 00:09:10,740 --> 00:09:14,739 who suffered for championing his dangerous idea. 117 00:09:20,500 --> 00:09:25,499 Copernicus's new theory soon pitted science and Christianity against each other 118 00:09:26,460 --> 00:09:29,539 in the scientific revolution's darkest hour. 119 00:09:30,540 --> 00:09:35,539 This was a true tragedy because the Church is made of human beings who don't want to admit they're wrong. 120 00:09:52,920 --> 00:09:56,919 As a scientist today, I'm free to put forward any idea, as long as 121 00:09:56,960 --> 00:10:00,459 I can back it up with evidence. 122 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,919 But in Italy 400 years ago, 123 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:06,619 I would also have needed the approval of the Vatican. 124 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:09,419 Until the 16th century, 125 00:10:09,420 --> 00:10:14,419 the papacy tolerated scientific ideas that contradicted the Bible. 126 00:10:14,700 --> 00:10:18,139 But by the late 1500s, the Protestant Reformation had emerged 127 00:10:18,140 --> 00:10:23,139 and was accusing the Catholics of forsaking the true word of God. 128 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:28,059 In response, the Vatican ruled that anyone who contradicted 129 00:10:28,060 --> 00:10:31,459 Catholic doctrine was a heretic. 130 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:37,619 And so began science's darkest hour. 131 00:10:39,820 --> 00:10:42,659 Just a stone's throw from St Peter's, this forbidding building 132 00:10:42,860 --> 00:10:45,739 is the papal police station. 133 00:10:45,740 --> 00:10:47,459 It's the notorious Inquisition 134 00:10:47,460 --> 00:10:51,459 set up in the 16th century to defend against heresy. 135 00:10:57,080 --> 00:11:00,499 Scholars who speculated about the nature of the world 136 00:11:00,500 --> 00:11:04,099 could find themselves branded heretics. 137 00:11:04,700 --> 00:11:07,459 In the late 1500s, one of the most original thinkers 138 00:11:07,460 --> 00:11:10,459 was a man named Giordano Bruno. 139 00:11:11,620 --> 00:11:15,419 While studying for the priesthood, Bruno became captivated 140 00:11:15,780 --> 00:11:19,099 by Copernicus's theory that the Earth orbits the sun. 141 00:11:19,500 --> 00:11:23,419 Is it fair to say that reading Copernicus's book set the stage, 142 00:11:23,420 --> 00:11:27,139 as it were, for Bruno's own ideas? It must have, because Copernicus, 143 00:11:27,140 --> 00:11:31,059 in a way, opens up a new world for knowledge. 144 00:11:31,060 --> 00:11:35,059 And Bruno says Copernicus stopped at the sphere of the fixed stars, 145 00:11:35,380 --> 00:11:37,819 and Bruno goes past the eighth, ninth, tenth 146 00:11:37,820 --> 00:11:40,179 and however many spheres you'd like to name. 147 00:11:40,180 --> 00:11:41,859 He thought there were other earths. 148 00:11:41,860 --> 00:11:45,499 He thought there might be creatures on these other earths. 149 00:11:45,500 --> 00:11:50,499 And that's one of the issues that gets him in trouble with the Church, 150 00:11:50,780 --> 00:11:57,779 because if there are multiple earths, how many earths is the Pope Pope of? 151 00:11:59,060 --> 00:12:03,059 In 1600, the Inquisition had Bruno burnt at the stake. 152 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:06,939 He wasn't a real scientist, 153 00:12:06,940 --> 00:12:10,939 but his death was a huge blow to the emerging scientific movement. 154 00:12:12,020 --> 00:12:14,859 Would it be fair to say that what happened in this square, 155 00:12:14,860 --> 00:12:19,859 the execution of Bruno, had a very serious impact on Italian science? 156 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,979 It's devastating, I think, for both science and for the Church. 157 00:12:25,140 --> 00:12:29,139 One, it makes controversial ideas dangerous. 158 00:12:29,380 --> 00:12:35,379 Secondly, it makes publication of controversial ideas dangerous. 159 00:12:42,780 --> 00:12:46,779 I think Bruno's execution marked the beginning of a battle 160 00:12:46,860 --> 00:12:50,379 between faith and reason. 161 00:12:50,880 --> 00:12:55,379 The dangers I faced for my science came from a small group of fanatics. 162 00:12:56,700 --> 00:13:00,259 But during the Renaissance, most threats to scientists 163 00:13:00,260 --> 00:13:04,059 had the backing of the mighty Catholic Church. 164 00:13:05,500 --> 00:13:10,499 This is the Inquisition handbook of torture, 1643. 165 00:13:11,020 --> 00:13:14,139 Oh, it's volume one, actually. 166 00:13:14,140 --> 00:13:17,539 You know, the Inquisition might not have invented these kinds of 167 00:13:17,540 --> 00:13:21,259 horrendous techniques but they certainly adopted them with relish. 168 00:13:21,260 --> 00:13:24,539 Not only to force confessions from those who were accused 169 00:13:24,540 --> 00:13:28,539 but, quite frankly, to put the fear of God into everyone else. 170 00:13:31,500 --> 00:13:35,499 Questioning Catholic dogma could have fatal consequences. 171 00:13:36,100 --> 00:13:40,499 In Italy, fear of the Inquisition forced scientists underground. 172 00:13:41,380 --> 00:13:45,379 Those brave enough to speak out were quickly silenced. 173 00:13:50,660 --> 00:13:54,499 It seems very likely that poor Bruno had a contraption like this 174 00:13:54,500 --> 00:13:57,939 clamped on his head just before he was burnt at the stake. 175 00:13:57,940 --> 00:14:00,739 It's an interesting device, really. 176 00:14:00,940 --> 00:14:03,499 It clamps around the neck, 177 00:14:03,500 --> 00:14:07,999 like that, and this thing pushes down on the tongue to stop 178 00:14:08,580 --> 00:14:12,579 the victim proclaiming against the Church at the moment of death. 179 00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:18,779 And what it's resting on is a papal whipping block. 180 00:14:18,780 --> 00:14:22,459 Knowledge of things like this must surely have terrified people. 181 00:14:22,460 --> 00:14:26,459 The worst that a scientist can expect these days is to get their paper rejected from the journal 182 00:14:26,940 --> 00:14:30,099 they sent it to or maybe their grant application gets turned down. 183 00:14:30,100 --> 00:14:34,099 Well, in poor Bruno's day, this is what might have happened to you. 184 00:14:39,260 --> 00:14:43,259 In the 17th century, the Catholic Church still insisted that the Earth 185 00:14:43,540 --> 00:14:47,939 was the centre of a universe that was only a few thousand years old. 186 00:14:48,940 --> 00:14:52,939 But today, scientific evidence has forced it to change its views. 187 00:14:59,940 --> 00:15:02,419 After a successful academic career, 188 00:15:02,420 --> 00:15:05,099 Guy Consolmagno became a Jesuit brother 189 00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:08,699 and is now one of theVatican's official astronomers. 190 00:15:08,700 --> 00:15:12,659 So, this is the meteorite lab, and this is where the work... 191 00:15:12,660 --> 00:15:14,659 You're not serious?Yeah. 192 00:15:14,660 --> 00:15:18,059 We think these things were made 4.5 billion years ago 193 00:15:18,060 --> 00:15:20,259 in a solar nebula of gas and dust. 194 00:15:20,260 --> 00:15:24,259 But what turned the dust into a solid rock? 195 00:15:24,660 --> 00:15:26,339 Nobody knows. 196 00:15:26,340 --> 00:15:29,979 Can I just pick you up on one thing you said, just a throwaway remark? 197 00:15:29,980 --> 00:15:33,659 About events that were happening 4.5 billion years ago? 198 00:15:33,660 --> 00:15:37,139 To say that doesn't raise the slightest concerns in your mind, 199 00:15:37,140 --> 00:15:40,219 the slightest doubts, you are totally aligned 200 00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:43,819 with cosmological estimates of the age of the universe and so on. 201 00:15:43,820 --> 00:15:46,739 The point of the Bible is not the science of it. 202 00:15:46,740 --> 00:15:49,899 The Bible's not a science book. I've written science books. 203 00:15:49,900 --> 00:15:53,779 You know that a science book goes out of date after about three years. 204 00:15:53,780 --> 00:15:56,139 The Bible's been around for about 2,500 years. 205 00:15:56,140 --> 00:16:00,099 For what it says, it's not out of date. So it's not a science book. 206 00:16:00,100 --> 00:16:01,099 But isn'tit the word of God? 207 00:16:01,100 --> 00:16:03,819 But isn'tit the word of God? It is not the dictated word of God, 208 00:16:03,820 --> 00:16:07,299 God whispering this into some scribe's hand who's writing it down. 209 00:16:07,300 --> 00:16:10,019 We're not Muslims, it's not the Qur'an. 210 00:16:10,020 --> 00:16:14,719 It is a human interpretation of divine inspiration. 211 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:18,139 400 years ago, it was another astronomer 212 00:16:18,140 --> 00:16:22,039 who'd caught the Vatican's attention. 213 00:16:22,420 --> 00:16:26,419 Galileo Galilei was one of the most respected scientists in Europe. 214 00:16:28,120 --> 00:16:31,619 He helped the Vatican set up its first observatory in Rome 215 00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:35,619 and taught astronomy at the finest universities in the Catholic world. 216 00:16:39,380 --> 00:16:42,339 In 1609, he even introduced the Church 217 00:16:42,340 --> 00:16:46,339 to a new invention,the telescope. 218 00:16:46,540 --> 00:16:50,539 Oh, that's wonderful. 219 00:16:52,340 --> 00:16:56,019 The telescope, of course, is first really demonstrated to the world 220 00:16:56,020 --> 00:17:00,019 by Galileo, as an astronomical telescope in January of 1609. 221 00:17:00,780 --> 00:17:04,659 One of the first things he did was to bring it to the Jesuits 222 00:17:04,660 --> 00:17:08,659 at the Roman College and Galileo was feted as a great conquering hero. 223 00:17:09,340 --> 00:17:11,779 What the Vatican didn't realise 224 00:17:11,780 --> 00:17:15,139 was that Galileo's new observations of the stars, 225 00:17:15,140 --> 00:17:21,139 planets and their moons supported the heretical views of Copernicus. 226 00:17:21,340 --> 00:17:25,339 They confirmed that the Earth was not at the centre of God's universe. 227 00:17:26,660 --> 00:17:29,939 Galileo announced his controversial discoveries, 228 00:17:29,940 --> 00:17:33,939 hoping that his friend the Pope would protect him. 229 00:17:34,500 --> 00:17:38,059 Instead, he was tried for heresy. 230 00:17:38,460 --> 00:17:42,459 By a vote of seven to three, Galileo was found guilty. 231 00:17:42,900 --> 00:17:45,619 He was shown the instruments of torture. 232 00:17:45,620 --> 00:17:50,619 He was a 69-year-old man with severe arthritis and he decided to confess. 233 00:17:51,260 --> 00:17:56,259 He said, "I abjure, curse and detest my errors." 234 00:17:59,180 --> 00:18:03,179 Galileo, arguably the first true scientist, 235 00:18:03,580 --> 00:18:05,859 was condemned as a heretic. 236 00:18:05,860 --> 00:18:09,859 It was a disaster for science. 237 00:18:10,540 --> 00:18:14,059 The real tragedy of Galileo wasn't just that he was put on trial 238 00:18:14,060 --> 00:18:17,139 for something that was not a religious issue, 239 00:18:17,140 --> 00:18:18,939 but that the Church was so slow 240 00:18:18,940 --> 00:18:22,259 in accommodating itself to the evidence as it piled up, 241 00:18:22,260 --> 00:18:24,819 because the Church is made of human beings 242 00:18:24,820 --> 00:18:27,179 who don't want to admit they're wrong. 243 00:18:27,180 --> 00:18:30,179 This was a true tragedy. 244 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:38,539 The real problem was that Galileo had changed the rules of the game. 245 00:18:38,700 --> 00:18:42,699 He was the first astronomer to base his theories on evidence, 246 00:18:42,860 --> 00:18:46,459 and the Church didn't like that one bit. 247 00:18:47,780 --> 00:18:51,139 The Catholic Church sponsored and encouraged philosophers 248 00:18:51,140 --> 00:18:54,699 and thinkers, including Galileo, as long as what they delivered 249 00:18:54,700 --> 00:18:56,899 was simply ideas. 250 00:18:56,900 --> 00:19:01,899 But then Galileo, arguably the very first scientist, discovered a way, 251 00:19:02,500 --> 00:19:05,659 through experiments, of testing ideas 252 00:19:05,660 --> 00:19:08,579 and knowing whether they were wrong. 253 00:19:08,580 --> 00:19:12,059 When science started to produce facts, not just ideas, 254 00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:16,059 the Church just didn't know what to do. They fought against it. 255 00:19:25,420 --> 00:19:29,079 While the Inquisition's iron grip was stifling 256 00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:33,179 science in Catholic Italy, in Protestant Britain, 257 00:19:34,020 --> 00:19:36,899 scholars were laying foundations for the next phase 258 00:19:36,900 --> 00:19:38,579 of the scientific revolution, 259 00:19:38,580 --> 00:19:42,579 the beginning of an explosion of knowledge. 260 00:19:44,020 --> 00:19:47,099 In 1609, an Englishman made his way 261 00:19:47,100 --> 00:19:51,099 to take up an appointment here at St Bartholemew's Hospital in London. 262 00:19:55,260 --> 00:19:57,899 His name was William Harvey, 263 00:19:57,900 --> 00:20:01,019 a physician who'd studied at Padua in Italy 264 00:20:01,020 --> 00:20:04,019 where Galileo was a professor. 265 00:20:05,660 --> 00:20:09,659 You can almost see Harvey carrying the baton of science 266 00:20:09,820 --> 00:20:14,819 from Italy, the tradition of Galileo and so on, across to England. 267 00:20:15,020 --> 00:20:19,019 Yes, and it was an extremely exciting time for science in this country. 268 00:20:19,020 --> 00:20:22,619 We have the birth of the Royal Society in 1660s. 269 00:20:22,620 --> 00:20:24,299 It was a time, really, when people 270 00:20:24,500 --> 00:20:27,739 were looking towards a new way of thinking about the world. 271 00:20:27,740 --> 00:20:30,139 And you can see Harvey 272 00:20:30,140 --> 00:20:34,139 as a sort of a crucial figure at the beginning of this movement. 273 00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,419 The church based its views of biology on the writings 274 00:20:39,420 --> 00:20:42,299 of ancient philosophers and the biblical teaching 275 00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:45,019 that man was made in God's image. 276 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,899 But Harvey's revolutionary observations suggested 277 00:20:48,900 --> 00:20:51,899 that the body was made like a machine. 278 00:20:53,020 --> 00:20:57,419 There was this concept that the parts of the body didn't necessarily have a function, 279 00:20:57,700 --> 00:21:00,219 but they were simply there because that's the way 280 00:21:00,220 --> 00:21:03,579 that God had designed them and that was it, the end of the argument. 281 00:21:03,580 --> 00:21:06,619 But one of Harvey's genius moments was the discovery 282 00:21:06,620 --> 00:21:09,979 and the demonstration that all the parts of the vascular system 283 00:21:09,980 --> 00:21:13,379 played a very important mechanical role. 284 00:21:13,380 --> 00:21:17,679 He was able to show that blood moved around in two closed loops 285 00:21:17,980 --> 00:21:20,499 and, of course, this is the fundamental basis 286 00:21:20,500 --> 00:21:23,499 of all cardiovascular physiology ever since. 287 00:21:30,060 --> 00:21:33,539 William Harvey himself was still half a mystic. 288 00:21:33,540 --> 00:21:36,899 He wrote about the heart as the sun of the microcosm, 289 00:21:36,900 --> 00:21:40,259 as a household god that serves the rest of the body. 290 00:21:40,260 --> 00:21:43,139 But the techniques that he brought back from Italy, 291 00:21:43,140 --> 00:21:45,739 of making observations, drawing conclusions 292 00:21:45,740 --> 00:21:48,899 and then testing those conclusions with further observations. 293 00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:52,419 That was certainly the beginning of the scientific method, 294 00:21:52,420 --> 00:21:55,219 and it helpedto fuel the explosion of science 295 00:21:55,220 --> 00:21:58,459 that happened in this country in the 17th century, 296 00:21:58,460 --> 00:22:00,979 giving those early scientists methods 297 00:22:00,980 --> 00:22:03,779 to allow them to challenge the written word, 298 00:22:03,780 --> 00:22:07,779 whether it was the words of Aristotle or the words of scripture. 299 00:22:11,900 --> 00:22:15,899 In the 18th century, a new movement swept through the Western world. 300 00:22:17,180 --> 00:22:20,019 Thinkers such as Isaac Newton and John Locke 301 00:22:20,020 --> 00:22:22,499 realised that the laws of the universe 302 00:22:22,500 --> 00:22:26,499 were there to be discovered, not read about in the Bible. 303 00:22:27,020 --> 00:22:30,499 It was the age of enlightenment. 304 00:22:30,900 --> 00:22:34,899 Democracy, freedom and science replaced religion 305 00:22:35,340 --> 00:22:37,419 at the heart of society. 306 00:22:37,820 --> 00:22:42,419 For me, the person who epitomised the enlightenment is an American, 307 00:22:42,700 --> 00:22:44,219 Benjamin Franklin. 308 00:22:44,220 --> 00:22:48,219 He was not only a statesman but also a celebrated scientist, 309 00:22:48,460 --> 00:22:52,459 who found a rational explanation for the wrath of God. 310 00:22:57,020 --> 00:22:58,459 Hello. Welcome to Benjamin Franklin House. 311 00:22:58,460 --> 00:23:01,939 Thank you very much. 312 00:23:01,940 --> 00:23:04,299 In 1750, Franklin suggested 313 00:23:04,300 --> 00:23:08,059 that lightning was just a form of electricity. 314 00:23:08,060 --> 00:23:12,059 In the Georgian period, churches were always the tallest building around 315 00:23:12,060 --> 00:23:15,419 and a lot of them had wood in them, so when they were struck by lightning 316 00:23:15,420 --> 00:23:18,859 they would just burn down, and it would be awful for your community. 317 00:23:18,860 --> 00:23:22,299 Not only because your largest civic building had burnt to the ground, 318 00:23:22,300 --> 00:23:26,299 but also because it showed someone in your community had done something pretty bad. 319 00:23:26,420 --> 00:23:27,179 Because God did it. 320 00:23:27,180 --> 00:23:28,219 Exactly. 321 00:23:28,220 --> 00:23:31,539 So Franklin decided that he would protect churches from this, 322 00:23:31,540 --> 00:23:33,019 from the electrical fluid. 323 00:23:33,020 --> 00:23:35,779 So he went on to develop the lightning rod. 324 00:23:35,780 --> 00:23:38,859 So if I just slot this in... 325 00:23:38,860 --> 00:23:42,859 I would ask you not to touch the table for reasons that will become apparent very quickly. 326 00:23:50,820 --> 00:23:52,939 Churches weren't always keen to have 327 00:23:52,940 --> 00:23:56,379 science mix with religion in quite this level. 328 00:23:56,380 --> 00:24:00,379 They did see that it was Franklin trying to circumvent God and God's will. 329 00:24:01,020 --> 00:24:04,659 Franklin did say that if you don't want to circumvent God's wishes, 330 00:24:04,660 --> 00:24:07,419 you should actually not have a roof on your church, 331 00:24:07,420 --> 00:24:09,819 because rain is also a natural phenomenon. 332 00:24:09,820 --> 00:24:13,919 But obviously, now all churches have lightning rods on them, so it does work. 333 00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:17,459 I imagine if God wishes to punish you, he could find other ways. 334 00:24:18,060 --> 00:24:20,339 Franklin was also the first scientist 335 00:24:20,340 --> 00:24:23,339 to help found a nation with a new form of government. 336 00:24:23,340 --> 00:24:26,099 His championing of scientific rationality 337 00:24:26,100 --> 00:24:30,099 inspired the first country built on enlightenment principles. 338 00:24:31,420 --> 00:24:34,619 In many ways, Franklin was, really, 339 00:24:34,620 --> 00:24:36,939 if not THE father of the United States, 340 00:24:36,940 --> 00:24:39,419 certainly one of the principle thinkers 341 00:24:39,420 --> 00:24:42,099 behind the secular state of the United States. 342 00:24:42,300 --> 00:24:45,299 Absolutely. He was one of the founding fathers. 343 00:24:45,300 --> 00:24:47,459 He did not want the organised church 344 00:24:47,460 --> 00:24:50,539 to have anything to do with the running of a nation. 345 00:24:50,540 --> 00:24:53,899 He thought it was a bad idea to have church and state combined 346 00:24:53,900 --> 00:24:57,899 and, therefore, split it off, so creating a secular state in America. 347 00:25:00,460 --> 00:25:03,419 Ben Franklin was the son of a puritan immigrant. 348 00:25:03,420 --> 00:25:06,379 He intended to go into the church himself, 349 00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:08,739 but, here in London at the age of 19, 350 00:25:08,740 --> 00:25:12,579 he first wrote his views about conventional religion, 351 00:25:12,580 --> 00:25:16,579 rejecting the ceremony, the pomp, the dogma. 352 00:25:17,140 --> 00:25:21,139 For me, Ben Franklin really symbolises the enlightenment, 353 00:25:21,460 --> 00:25:25,259 the age of reason, and the free thinking, the openness, 354 00:25:25,260 --> 00:25:28,579 the rejection of authority during that period 355 00:25:28,580 --> 00:25:32,579 continued the process of undermining the authority of the church. 356 00:25:35,020 --> 00:25:39,219 It was scientists brought up on these enlightenment principles, 357 00:25:39,500 --> 00:25:42,519 who pushed Christianity into a retreat, 358 00:25:42,820 --> 00:25:44,859 which continues to this day. 359 00:25:44,860 --> 00:25:50,859 Darwin removed the main argument for God's existence. 360 00:26:09,660 --> 00:26:13,459 I think that science's biggest challenge to Christianity 361 00:26:13,460 --> 00:26:16,659 was Charles Darwin's theory of evolution. 362 00:26:16,660 --> 00:26:20,619 In 1859, Darwin published On The Origin Of Species, 363 00:26:20,620 --> 00:26:24,619 which suggested that life on Earth was not designed by God, 364 00:26:24,860 --> 00:26:28,859 but had evolved through a process called natural selection. 365 00:26:31,060 --> 00:26:35,059 My colleague Richard Dawkins has become the best-known critic 366 00:26:35,100 --> 00:26:39,499 of religion, some would say the Archbishop of Atheism. 367 00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:44,379 For him, evolution is the best reason for not believing in God. 368 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,499 Richard, I guess you could say that after Copernicus and Galileo, 369 00:26:48,780 --> 00:26:52,139 evolutionary theory was the second great challenge 370 00:26:52,140 --> 00:26:54,299 to conventional religious belief. 371 00:26:54,300 --> 00:26:56,779 How did Darwin himself deal with it? 372 00:26:56,780 --> 00:26:59,579 He was well aware that it was a great challenge, 373 00:26:59,580 --> 00:27:02,899 and he was appropriately cautious before releasing it. 374 00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:06,779 He delayed for something like 20 years after writing it out, 375 00:27:06,780 --> 00:27:10,499 and some people think the main reason for his delay was caution 376 00:27:10,500 --> 00:27:14,199 because of the effect it would have on the religious establishment. 377 00:27:14,540 --> 00:27:16,179 'Christians had always believed 378 00:27:16,180 --> 00:27:18,539 'that human beings were made in God's image, 379 00:27:18,540 --> 00:27:22,539 'but Darwin's theory implied that we are in fact apes.' 380 00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:29,179 Darwin removed the main argument for God's existence, 381 00:27:29,220 --> 00:27:33,219 because before Darwin, it looked as though the evident, 382 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,379 apparent design of living things 383 00:27:36,380 --> 00:27:40,379 could only be interpreted as actual design. 384 00:27:41,100 --> 00:27:44,659 Some people seem to have come to terms with evolution, 385 00:27:44,660 --> 00:27:46,379 as they did with Copernicanism, 386 00:27:46,380 --> 00:27:50,379 by saying it's just an illumination of the wonders of God. 387 00:27:50,740 --> 00:27:54,499 I find it remarkably unconvincing, because the suggestion is that God, 388 00:27:54,500 --> 00:27:57,739 in deciding to create life, chose to do it in precisely the way 389 00:27:57,740 --> 00:28:00,019 that made it look as though he wasn't there. 390 00:28:00,020 --> 00:28:04,019 Well, you could say that the difficult bit was creating 391 00:28:04,100 --> 00:28:08,699 the physics of the universe, with all its improbabilities, 392 00:28:09,020 --> 00:28:12,619 in such a way that it would allow evolution to occur. 393 00:28:12,620 --> 00:28:14,499 That's a much better way to look at it. 394 00:28:14,700 --> 00:28:18,179 I mean, there's a certain amount of plausibility about that. 395 00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:22,179 I find it ultimately implausible, because it suggests that... 396 00:28:22,580 --> 00:28:27,579 an intelligent creator would need an even bigger explanation himself. 397 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:35,579 This wonderful university museum at Oxford 398 00:28:35,580 --> 00:28:39,579 exudes Victorian confidence in the special power of human beings. 399 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:44,459 It was here in 1860 that Samuel Wilberforce, the Bishop of Oxford, 400 00:28:44,780 --> 00:28:48,779 defended Christianity against the onslaught of Thomas Henry Huxley, 401 00:28:49,140 --> 00:28:50,819 the great champion of Darwin. 402 00:28:50,820 --> 00:28:54,919 There's no doubt that Darwin's discovery of a natural mechanism 403 00:28:55,460 --> 00:28:58,179 that could explain the origin of all life on earth, 404 00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:01,339 including human beings, without divine intervention, 405 00:29:01,340 --> 00:29:05,179 was a serious challenge to conventional religious belief. 406 00:29:05,180 --> 00:29:08,379 Christians are still uncertain and divided 407 00:29:08,380 --> 00:29:12,379 about how to respond to evolution. 408 00:29:13,300 --> 00:29:16,339 The overwhelming evidence for Darwin's theory 409 00:29:16,340 --> 00:29:19,019 has led the mainstream churches to concede 410 00:29:19,020 --> 00:29:23,019 that humans were not literally made by God. 411 00:29:24,140 --> 00:29:29,139 But they cling to the idea that God made evolution possible. 412 00:29:29,740 --> 00:29:33,739 This kind of accommodation has become a familiar pattern. 413 00:29:34,860 --> 00:29:38,779 It's not a matter of overturning what we thought before, 414 00:29:38,780 --> 00:29:40,459 it's more a matter of saying that 415 00:29:40,460 --> 00:29:43,619 what we were taught when we were seven years old is still true, 416 00:29:43,620 --> 00:29:45,299 but there's so much more going on 417 00:29:45,300 --> 00:29:48,859 that we couldn't possibly have handled when we were seven years old. 418 00:29:48,860 --> 00:29:52,539 Well, you seem to be talking about a kind of Plasticine God, 419 00:29:52,540 --> 00:29:56,539 a God that can be stretched and deformed to fit any shape you want, 420 00:29:56,660 --> 00:30:00,299 informed by science, but stretched, still, 421 00:30:00,300 --> 00:30:03,339 to fit with the changing image of the reality of the world 422 00:30:03,340 --> 00:30:04,939 that science is giving us. 423 00:30:04,940 --> 00:30:08,299 It's no more Plasticine than the universe is Plasticine 424 00:30:08,300 --> 00:30:10,339 as our understanding of it shifts. 425 00:30:10,340 --> 00:30:11,419 The Plasticine is up here. 426 00:30:11,420 --> 00:30:12,459 Yes... 427 00:30:12,460 --> 00:30:16,379 As I'm older, my mind can stretch a little bit closer 428 00:30:16,380 --> 00:30:20,079 to the dimensions of the God that was out there all the time. 429 00:30:24,340 --> 00:30:28,299 Mainstream Christianity has been so influenced by the Enlightenment 430 00:30:28,300 --> 00:30:30,419 that its views are now totally different 431 00:30:30,420 --> 00:30:34,019 from those of 400 years ago. 432 00:30:35,500 --> 00:30:38,379 But the beliefs of some Christians in the United States 433 00:30:38,380 --> 00:30:41,019 have hardly changed at all. 434 00:30:41,220 --> 00:30:44,699 A recent poll found that almost one third of Americans still believe 435 00:30:44,700 --> 00:30:48,699 that the Biblical story of creation is literally true. 436 00:30:49,980 --> 00:30:53,059 It's extraordinary to think that the word "fundamentalism", 437 00:30:53,060 --> 00:30:56,219 which we nowadays associate with extreme governments, 438 00:30:56,220 --> 00:31:00,219 Islamic regimes, actually originated here in the United States. 439 00:31:00,900 --> 00:31:04,139 I want to find out how it could be that in this secular country, 440 00:31:04,140 --> 00:31:07,939 built on the success of science and technology, 441 00:31:07,940 --> 00:31:11,939 those kinds of fundamental views of Christianity could still survive. 442 00:31:13,620 --> 00:31:17,619 This is Dayton, Tennessee, in the heart of the Bible Belt. 443 00:31:19,980 --> 00:31:23,179 In 1925, a state law was passed 444 00:31:23,180 --> 00:31:26,859 that made the teaching of human evolution illegal. 445 00:31:26,860 --> 00:31:31,859 A local teacher, John Scopes, was tried for breaking this new law. 446 00:31:32,460 --> 00:31:35,979 The Chicago defence lawyer Clarence Darrow was pitted against 447 00:31:35,980 --> 00:31:39,979 William Jennings Bryan, a former presidential candidate. 448 00:31:41,260 --> 00:31:45,019 The trial took place in this courtroom. 449 00:31:45,020 --> 00:31:49,019 You have given considerable study to the Bible, haven't you, Mr Bryan? 450 00:31:50,060 --> 00:31:51,579 Yes, sir, I have tried to. 451 00:31:51,580 --> 00:31:54,219 And you claim that everything in the Bible 452 00:31:54,220 --> 00:31:56,179 should be literally interpreted? 453 00:31:56,180 --> 00:31:57,819 I believe everything in the Bible 454 00:31:57,820 --> 00:32:00,419 should be accepted as it is given there. 455 00:32:00,420 --> 00:32:04,419 Some is illustrative. For example, "Ye are the salt of the earth." 456 00:32:04,540 --> 00:32:08,539 I would not insist that man was actually salt, or had flesh of salt, 457 00:32:08,860 --> 00:32:12,859 but it is used in the sense of salt as saving God's people. 458 00:32:13,260 --> 00:32:17,259 Scopes was found guilty. His trial marked the start of a battle 459 00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:20,859 over the teaching of evolution that still continues 460 00:32:20,860 --> 00:32:22,779 in some American states. 461 00:32:22,780 --> 00:32:26,179 'I am simply trying to protect the word of God from the greatest 462 00:32:26,180 --> 00:32:30,179 'atheist or agnostic in the United States...' 463 00:32:32,060 --> 00:32:35,379 Professor Ron Numbers, who grew up near Dayton, 464 00:32:35,380 --> 00:32:39,079 was born into a fundamentalist Christian family. 465 00:32:40,020 --> 00:32:42,659 My father was a fundamentalist preacher here. 466 00:32:42,660 --> 00:32:45,499 The Seventh Day Adventists were the people 467 00:32:45,500 --> 00:32:48,179 who gave the world Young Earth creationism. 468 00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:50,619 "Young Earth" means what, exactly? 469 00:32:50,620 --> 00:32:53,819 Well, that you don't believe there is anything here 470 00:32:53,820 --> 00:32:57,099 more than about 6,000 years. 471 00:32:57,300 --> 00:33:01,799 Early fundamentalists were appalled by the diluted form of Christianity 472 00:33:02,140 --> 00:33:05,079 that had emerged from the Enlightenment. 473 00:33:05,180 --> 00:33:09,179 It was the influence of Germany, 474 00:33:09,260 --> 00:33:12,899 German scholarship and some English scholarship especially, 475 00:33:12,900 --> 00:33:16,899 that scared the bejesus out of evangelicals in America. 476 00:33:17,300 --> 00:33:19,819 They would send over young scholars, 477 00:33:19,820 --> 00:33:22,099 and they would come back tainted with this. 478 00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:26,099 They didn't believe in the Virgin Birth or the Resurrection any more. 479 00:33:26,140 --> 00:33:30,139 They didn't believe Moses had written the first five books of the Bible. 480 00:33:30,340 --> 00:33:32,219 It was knowledge of science 481 00:33:32,220 --> 00:33:35,099 that convinced Ron to abandon his beliefs. 482 00:33:35,100 --> 00:33:38,379 He now lectures on every aspect of fundamentalism, 483 00:33:38,380 --> 00:33:41,619 including the fundamentalist version of science. 484 00:33:41,620 --> 00:33:42,979 Almost to a person, 485 00:33:42,980 --> 00:33:46,979 these fundamentalists profess to love science. They love science. 486 00:33:47,300 --> 00:33:51,299 Back in the 1920s at the time of the Scopes trial here, 487 00:33:51,700 --> 00:33:55,699 the anti-evolutionist argued against evolution on the grounds 488 00:33:56,260 --> 00:34:00,259 that it didn't deserve the good name of science. It was too speculative, 489 00:34:00,380 --> 00:34:04,379 there wasn't enough evidence, and science was something wonderful. 490 00:34:06,180 --> 00:34:08,859 In the 1970s, American fundamentalists 491 00:34:08,860 --> 00:34:11,939 came up with their own version of science - 492 00:34:11,940 --> 00:34:14,939 scientific creationism. 493 00:34:17,100 --> 00:34:19,459 Creationists base their core principles 494 00:34:19,460 --> 00:34:23,459 not on observation and experiment, but on the Bible. 495 00:34:23,900 --> 00:34:27,899 The Creation Museum in Kentucky was set up in 2007 496 00:34:28,100 --> 00:34:30,659 to give Christians a history of the natural world 497 00:34:30,660 --> 00:34:34,659 that fits with a literal interpretation of the Bible. 498 00:34:37,220 --> 00:34:40,139 Amazing to think, really, about one in 500 Americans 499 00:34:40,140 --> 00:34:43,659 have already been to see this exhibition,even in its first year. 500 00:34:43,660 --> 00:34:47,059 That could have a lot of influence on opinion. 501 00:34:49,260 --> 00:34:52,779 The Bible states that God created the universe 502 00:34:52,780 --> 00:34:56,739 and all life on Earth in six days. 503 00:34:56,740 --> 00:35:00,739 So, dinosaurs in the garden of Eden. 504 00:35:01,700 --> 00:35:03,899 That's scary! 505 00:35:03,900 --> 00:35:08,799 'If you take the Old Testament literally, dinosaurs and humans 506 00:35:09,340 --> 00:35:11,579 'must have lived at the same time.' 507 00:35:11,580 --> 00:35:15,099 It's amazing, really. 508 00:35:15,300 --> 00:35:18,739 We've got human beings fully clothed, 509 00:35:18,740 --> 00:35:23,739 collecting carrots with the friendly dinosaurs in the background. 510 00:35:24,140 --> 00:35:26,899 I mean, it's a nice kind of Disneyland scene, 511 00:35:26,900 --> 00:35:30,899 but it totally contradicts the fossil record. 512 00:35:34,020 --> 00:35:36,219 One of the museum's resident scientists, 513 00:35:36,220 --> 00:35:39,419 Jason Lisle, agreed to talk to me. 514 00:35:39,420 --> 00:35:42,379 I was curious to know how he reconciles his faith 515 00:35:42,380 --> 00:35:44,499 in the Biblical account of creation 516 00:35:44,500 --> 00:35:48,099 with contradictory scientific evidence. 517 00:35:48,620 --> 00:35:50,539 This beautiful display 518 00:35:50,540 --> 00:35:54,539 has lots of dinosaur figures in it, 519 00:35:54,580 --> 00:35:58,339 and a lot of the implication of the creationist story is that dinosaurs 520 00:35:58,340 --> 00:36:00,739 and human beings co-existed on the Earth. 521 00:36:00,740 --> 00:36:01,939 That's right. 522 00:36:01,940 --> 00:36:03,819 I don't know of any evidence for that, 523 00:36:03,820 --> 00:36:06,139 and know of a great deal of evidence against it. 524 00:36:06,140 --> 00:36:07,699 So why do you believe that? 525 00:36:07,700 --> 00:36:10,379 Ultimately, it's because God has told us in his word 526 00:36:10,380 --> 00:36:12,379 that God made all of the land animals. 527 00:36:12,380 --> 00:36:14,859 Dinosaurs are land animals, they walk on their legs. 528 00:36:14,860 --> 00:36:16,299 They were made on the sixth day, 529 00:36:16,300 --> 00:36:18,179 the same day as Adam, so they definitely lived at the same time. 530 00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:19,579 But you're a scientist. 531 00:36:19,580 --> 00:36:20,099 Yes, I am. 532 00:36:20,100 --> 00:36:21,459 You're an astrophysicist. 533 00:36:21,460 --> 00:36:21,899 Yes. 534 00:36:21,900 --> 00:36:23,539 And you say that's your position 535 00:36:23,540 --> 00:36:25,779 because you believe it because you read it. 536 00:36:25,780 --> 00:36:28,459 Um...what about experiments, what about evidence? 537 00:36:28,460 --> 00:36:30,939 I would say that I believe in experimentation. 538 00:36:30,940 --> 00:36:33,859 In fact, I would expect that to be possible because God 539 00:36:33,860 --> 00:36:36,779 upholds the universe in a consistent, logical way, 540 00:36:36,780 --> 00:36:39,259 so science would be possible because of my faith. 541 00:36:39,260 --> 00:36:42,299 What if experimentation and observation yielded evidence 542 00:36:42,300 --> 00:36:45,459 that appeared to contradict the statements in the scriptures? 543 00:36:45,460 --> 00:36:48,979 Well, that can always happen, but since our mind isn't perfect 544 00:36:48,980 --> 00:36:52,059 and since our observations aren't always perfect, 545 00:36:52,060 --> 00:36:54,899 if we find some experiment that seems to, on the surface, 546 00:36:54,900 --> 00:36:58,099 disagree with the word of God, we go with the word of God. 547 00:36:58,100 --> 00:37:00,859 If you say that when science contradicts the scripture, 548 00:37:00,860 --> 00:37:03,459 it's scripture you turn to - that's what's correct, 549 00:37:03,460 --> 00:37:04,779 why bother with science? 550 00:37:04,780 --> 00:37:07,179 The Bible tells us we need to care for the Earth. 551 00:37:07,180 --> 00:37:09,459 God gave us responsibility for this Earth. 552 00:37:09,460 --> 00:37:11,299 To do that, we have to know about it. 553 00:37:11,300 --> 00:37:14,499 Therefore, I think the mandate for doing science is scriptural, 554 00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:16,939 so I might challenge my non-Christian colleagues 555 00:37:16,940 --> 00:37:19,179 and say "What is your basis for doing science?" 556 00:37:19,180 --> 00:37:20,259 I have a reason to do it. 557 00:37:20,260 --> 00:37:23,979 I have a reason to expect that it can yield reliable results... 558 00:37:23,980 --> 00:37:27,459 I can tell you I do science because I want to find out how things work. 559 00:37:27,460 --> 00:37:28,019 Yeah. 560 00:37:28,020 --> 00:37:30,779 Yeah. I want to reveal the beauty of the natural world. 561 00:37:30,780 --> 00:37:33,459 Fair enough. But as a Christian, I would say the reason 562 00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:36,219 I can trust the methods of science are mostly reliable, 563 00:37:36,220 --> 00:37:38,939 is because God has made my mind. God has made the universe. 564 00:37:38,940 --> 00:37:41,939 I would expect those two things to go well together. 565 00:37:46,540 --> 00:37:48,979 I have to say, it's a pretty weird place, really. 566 00:37:48,980 --> 00:37:51,579 'What I found really weird, though, was that Jason, 567 00:37:51,580 --> 00:37:54,299 'who's an established scientist, that's undeniable, 568 00:37:54,300 --> 00:37:56,579 'can hold such extreme views. 569 00:37:56,580 --> 00:38:00,139 'He seemed to be saying that science is fine as long as it generates 570 00:38:00,140 --> 00:38:04,539 'results and findings that fit the views of the Church.' 571 00:38:04,980 --> 00:38:08,459 And when it doesn't, they simply can't be right, can they, 572 00:38:08,460 --> 00:38:11,739 because they contradict faith. 573 00:38:11,740 --> 00:38:15,739 I really wonder whether that reveals a fundamental contradiction 574 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:20,379 between Christianity, religion and science. 575 00:38:20,780 --> 00:38:24,699 It needn't necessarily be that way, but it is a real difficulty. 576 00:38:24,700 --> 00:38:28,339 I mean, what is the point of doing science if it's only right 577 00:38:28,340 --> 00:38:31,339 when it agrees with the Bible? 578 00:38:32,540 --> 00:38:35,859 Today, only a minority of Christians 579 00:38:35,860 --> 00:38:38,859 take everything in the Old Testament as the literal truth. 580 00:38:41,540 --> 00:38:45,059 But for the New Testament, it's a different story. 581 00:38:45,260 --> 00:38:49,259 When it comes to the life of Jesus Christ, all bets are off. 582 00:38:49,620 --> 00:38:53,619 That was a unique moment in human history. 583 00:39:05,380 --> 00:39:09,099 Thanks to the scientific revolution, most Christians now accept 584 00:39:09,100 --> 00:39:13,099 that much of the Old Testament is metaphorical. 585 00:39:13,380 --> 00:39:17,219 But science has had little impact on Christian attitudes 586 00:39:17,520 --> 00:39:18,259 to the New Testament. 587 00:39:19,260 --> 00:39:22,979 When it comes to the life of Jesus Christ, all bets are off. 588 00:39:22,980 --> 00:39:28,979 That was a unique moment in human history where God is inserted 589 00:39:29,340 --> 00:39:34,739 into his creation and we can't expect that to ever occur again. 590 00:39:35,140 --> 00:39:37,699 But you are stating this as an assertion. 591 00:39:37,700 --> 00:39:39,479 As a scientist, you have no evidence. 592 00:39:39,780 --> 00:39:40,579 I have no evidence. 593 00:39:40,580 --> 00:39:43,099 I have no evidence. And I suspect you have a good reason to believe 594 00:39:43,100 --> 00:39:46,059 that there will never be evidence to disprove what you're saying. 595 00:39:46,260 --> 00:39:47,379 Until we invent time machines... 596 00:39:47,380 --> 00:39:49,539 It's easy to make those kind of assertions. 597 00:39:49,740 --> 00:39:50,779 Until we invent time machines. 598 00:39:50,780 --> 00:39:52,459 Until we invent time machines. So it's an assertion based on faith. 599 00:39:52,660 --> 00:39:55,139 But it's also based on the evidence we have, 600 00:39:55,340 --> 00:39:57,739 the recorded evidence of the people at the time... 601 00:39:57,940 --> 00:40:00,099 Which you have dismissed as the evidence for all the other things 602 00:40:00,300 --> 00:40:03,059 that the Church has changed its views on, 603 00:40:03,460 --> 00:40:05,219 like creation in six days and... 604 00:40:05,220 --> 00:40:11,219 But the Church never taught this as central to its faith. 605 00:40:11,780 --> 00:40:14,539 This is not a core belief of the Church, this is not 606 00:40:14,540 --> 00:40:16,619 something that's in the creed. 607 00:40:16,620 --> 00:40:18,979 That's different from the life and death 608 00:40:18,980 --> 00:40:21,819 and resurrection of Jesus Christ. 609 00:40:22,820 --> 00:40:26,819 But science has led a few Christians to question even these fundamental 610 00:40:28,060 --> 00:40:28,299 tenets of Christianity. 611 00:40:31,300 --> 00:40:34,939 I was brought up an Anglican and there's a lot I still like 612 00:40:34,940 --> 00:40:36,659 about churches - 613 00:40:36,660 --> 00:40:40,659 the hymns, the contemplation, the sense of community. 614 00:40:41,140 --> 00:40:44,259 I'm here to meet an Anglican priest, David Paterson, 615 00:40:44,260 --> 00:40:48,259 who belongs to a group of Christians called the Sea of Faith. 616 00:40:48,700 --> 00:40:52,299 Many of them doubt the divinity of Jesus Christ 617 00:40:52,300 --> 00:40:56,299 and even whether God really exists. 618 00:40:56,380 --> 00:40:58,539 So let's just be clear. 619 00:40:58,540 --> 00:41:01,739 You mean God didn't make, literally make, the Universe. 620 00:41:01,740 --> 00:41:05,659 No. 621 00:41:05,660 --> 00:41:10,659 And God didn't engineer the virgin birth of Jesus. 622 00:41:11,380 --> 00:41:11,899 No. 623 00:41:11,900 --> 00:41:15,899 And Jesus perhaps didn't really exist as... as a person at all. 624 00:41:16,340 --> 00:41:21,339 Mmm, I think he probably did actually, yes. Yes, I think he did. 625 00:41:22,340 --> 00:41:24,779 Then, can I just explore that a bit more? 626 00:41:24,780 --> 00:41:28,779 I mean, what then is God to you? 627 00:41:29,340 --> 00:41:32,619 What I fell in love with... 628 00:41:32,620 --> 00:41:35,339 What I wanted to give my life to. 629 00:41:35,340 --> 00:41:39,339 And its ingredients were, well, were a lot about the natural world 630 00:41:39,700 --> 00:41:43,699 and a lot about making relationships with people. 631 00:41:44,340 --> 00:41:46,739 I mean, I empathise with all of those things, 632 00:41:46,740 --> 00:41:51,739 but I haven't found a necessity to see God reflected in those things. 633 00:41:52,060 --> 00:41:56,059 The existence of life is extraordinary, but why any more? 634 00:41:56,460 --> 00:41:58,099 And is there any more, really? 635 00:41:58,100 --> 00:41:59,699 No, there isn't any more. 636 00:41:59,700 --> 00:42:03,339 There is actually no difference between the theist and the atheist, 637 00:42:03,340 --> 00:42:07,039 it's only the terminology that's different. Some people have this 638 00:42:07,540 --> 00:42:12,539 deep understanding of the spiritual nature of reality, of everything, 639 00:42:13,420 --> 00:42:17,299 and they want to personify it and call it God or a god 640 00:42:17,300 --> 00:42:19,499 or a particular name of God or something. 641 00:42:19,500 --> 00:42:21,619 Some don't want to do that. 642 00:42:22,620 --> 00:42:26,619 David thinks that the Bible was never meant to be taken literally. 643 00:42:27,860 --> 00:42:31,859 All the religious stories are mythological stories 644 00:42:32,220 --> 00:42:34,179 where asking, "Did it happen?" 645 00:42:34,180 --> 00:42:35,939 or "Where did it happen?" 646 00:42:35,940 --> 00:42:37,579 or "What date did it happen?" 647 00:42:37,580 --> 00:42:39,739 is all completely irrelevant. 648 00:42:39,740 --> 00:42:42,499 It's actually all about 649 00:42:42,500 --> 00:42:46,499 this being a story that helps you to understand what life is all about. 650 00:42:48,860 --> 00:42:52,779 So according to David, all those fundamental tenets of Christianity, 651 00:42:52,780 --> 00:42:56,779 Virgin Birth, the Resurrection, life after death, 652 00:42:56,820 --> 00:42:59,079 didn't happen at all. 653 00:42:59,380 --> 00:43:02,219 Seems to me that that David's version of 654 00:43:02,220 --> 00:43:04,859 Christianity is virtually atheism. 655 00:43:04,860 --> 00:43:08,959 Science provides the facts about the world, religion gives us the music 656 00:43:09,620 --> 00:43:13,619 and the pictures and tells us stories about human nature. 657 00:43:24,080 --> 00:43:27,579 For me, it's science, not religion, that provides our 658 00:43:27,820 --> 00:43:31,819 best hope of understanding the workings of our universe. 659 00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:35,499 Professor Albert de Rocq has 660 00:43:35,500 --> 00:43:39,499 dedicated his life to exploring the scientific equivalent of Genesis - 661 00:43:40,540 --> 00:43:42,539 the Big Bang. 662 00:43:44,540 --> 00:43:48,539 Albert practices in this nondescript, early 21st century 663 00:43:49,020 --> 00:43:51,939 cathedral to science. 664 00:43:51,940 --> 00:43:55,599 Beneath its foundations lies a crypt containing the most 665 00:43:55,900 --> 00:43:59,499 elaborate scientific instrument ever constructed. 666 00:43:59,940 --> 00:44:03,419 The project cost over $8 billion 667 00:44:03,420 --> 00:44:07,119 and uses enough electricity to power a small city. 668 00:44:08,180 --> 00:44:12,079 So we are actually now a 100 metres underground, 669 00:44:12,180 --> 00:44:15,179 and in the main hall of the experiment. 670 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:20,099 And this is it, this is CMS. 671 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:38,419 Amazing. How extraordinary. 672 00:44:38,860 --> 00:44:41,899 Inside this particle accelerator, 673 00:44:41,900 --> 00:44:45,899 particles race through a circular tunnel 27 kilometres long, 674 00:44:46,300 --> 00:44:50,259 close to the speed of light, and smash together, simulating 675 00:44:50,260 --> 00:44:54,259 conditions a millionth of a second after the Big Bang. 676 00:44:58,340 --> 00:45:00,739 One goal is to find evidence 677 00:45:00,740 --> 00:45:04,739 for the Higgs Boson, which some call the God particle, 678 00:45:04,780 --> 00:45:08,779 because it is thought to have triggered the birth of the universe. 679 00:45:10,020 --> 00:45:13,059 In a world where there wouldn't have been the Higgs field, 680 00:45:13,460 --> 00:45:14,659 we wouldn't exist. 681 00:45:14,660 --> 00:45:18,659 That is why it's like a God particle, it's like God giving... 682 00:45:19,020 --> 00:45:21,099 You know, not everything is equal any more, 683 00:45:21,300 --> 00:45:24,299 but you have diversity and you can create diverse things. 684 00:45:25,340 --> 00:45:29,339 Albert has faith in this machine's ability to find the Higgs Boson, 685 00:45:30,100 --> 00:45:33,499 but if it doesn't, another theory will emerge. 686 00:45:34,420 --> 00:45:39,419 Unlike religion, science can change its view if the evidence demands it. 687 00:45:40,020 --> 00:45:42,619 That's the power of science. 688 00:45:43,620 --> 00:45:46,619 Do we see anything in the process 689 00:45:46,820 --> 00:45:50,599 that suggests the intervention by an intelligent being, by a God? 690 00:45:50,700 --> 00:45:53,979 Certainly, from the scientific point of view, we don't know. 691 00:45:53,980 --> 00:45:56,139 Personally, I don't believe 692 00:45:56,140 --> 00:46:01,139 that there has to be such an agent at work, but as a scientist, as I said, 693 00:46:01,420 --> 00:46:05,919 I work only on data, and so far, that hypothesis, for me, is not excluded, 694 00:46:06,460 --> 00:46:09,459 so I keep it open, but it's not a working hypothesis for me. 695 00:46:15,500 --> 00:46:19,499 Over the last 400 years, Christianity has been transformed 696 00:46:20,080 --> 00:46:22,779 by the power of science. 697 00:46:23,780 --> 00:46:26,759 During the Renaissance, the first scientists showed 698 00:46:27,060 --> 00:46:30,759 that the evidence of nature often contradicts the word of the Bible. 699 00:46:32,460 --> 00:46:34,039 In the 18th century, it was 700 00:46:34,340 --> 00:46:38,539 scientists who were at the forefront of the Enlightenment, making reason, 701 00:46:39,020 --> 00:46:43,019 not religious authority, the driving force in human affairs. 702 00:46:45,020 --> 00:46:49,019 And Darwin's theory of evolution has divided Christians on how to 703 00:46:49,500 --> 00:46:52,979 reconcile science with their faith. 704 00:46:52,980 --> 00:46:54,899 I believe that science will 705 00:46:54,900 --> 00:46:58,899 increasingly make religion redundant and will eventually provide us with 706 00:46:59,240 --> 00:47:04,539 an understanding not only of creation, but also, of ourselves. 707 00:47:10,780 --> 00:47:14,779 I think that the historical record shows that the power of science 708 00:47:15,060 --> 00:47:19,059 to explain what was previously mysterious is enormous. 709 00:47:19,500 --> 00:47:21,019 Personally, 710 00:47:21,020 --> 00:47:25,719 I think that science will one day give us not just a very satisfactory 711 00:47:25,900 --> 00:47:29,999 description of our physical world, of how we came to be here, but even 712 00:47:31,300 --> 00:47:36,299 of how it is that our brains give us this need for religious belief. 713 00:47:37,380 --> 00:47:39,219 If that happens, 714 00:47:39,220 --> 00:47:41,039 when that happens, 715 00:47:41,340 --> 00:47:44,339 what will be left for Christianity? 716 00:48:00,380 --> 00:48:04,379 Subtitles by Red Bee Media Ltd